Free speech in Australia.

[karpeth]

World War Two gives us another example. Kids are taught the evils of Germany and Germans, and all the awful things they did. But they are rarely taught that the Allied forces in WW2 did many of the same things. Or that the NAZIs actually learned some of their tricks from the Allies in the first place.

Umm... F'rinstance? I don't remember seeing anything about the Allies building concentration camps. Yes, detainment camps for the Japanese-Americans were horrible, but they weren't deliberately given starvation rations and then worked like rented mules, nor were they shoved into mass cremation chambers. Maybe somewhere in Russia, but then you're painting with a rather broad brush, here. Russia was an Ally strictly by convenience: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of thing. Look how quickly we started rattling sabers at each other after WW2 ended, if you don't believe me. OK, yeah, the firebombing of Dresden was more than a bit over the top, but still it antedated the London Blitz, which had the same basic goal of undermining morale by mass slaughter of civilians. Not that I'm trying to pretty either event up. As Sherman said: "War is hell, boys."

What I'm wondering about in this particular case is just which evils you're saying the Nazis imported from the Allies. Well, that and I'm thinking back on my own school days and trying to think of why we labeled the Nazis as evil other than the horrors of the Holocaust. And, frankly, I'm coming up blank for the most part. Yeah, book burning and censorship and all that, but most of that sprang from the same well that poured forth the Holocaust: hypernationalism and the search for a scapegoat.

"Maybe somewhere in russia"? I'll have you know, I know people who had friends and family who went to GULAG, and those camps were apparently better than the current american prisons...

[oni]

GULAG; "Bitch Wars" comes to mind. Google/wikipedia it for those with a propensity for learning something new...

[Scaramouche]

World War Two gives us another example. Kids are taught the evils of Germany and Germans, and all the awful things they did. But they are rarely taught that the Allied forces in WW2 did many of the same things. Or that the NAZIs actually learned some of their tricks from the Allies in the first place.

Umm... F'rinstance? I don't remember seeing anything about the Allies building concentration camps. Yes, detainment camps for the Japanese-Americans were horrible, but they weren't deliberately given starvation rations and then worked like rented mules, nor were they shoved into mass cremation chambers. Maybe somewhere in Russia, but then you're painting with a rather broad brush, here. Russia was an Ally strictly by convenience: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of thing. Look how quickly we started rattling sabers at each other after WW2 ended, if you don't believe me. OK, yeah, the firebombing of Dresden was more than a bit over the top, but still it antedated the London Blitz, which had the same basic goal of undermining morale by mass slaughter of civilians. Not that I'm trying to pretty either event up. As Sherman said: "War is hell, boys."

What I'm wondering about in this particular case is just which evils you're saying the Nazis imported from the Allies. Well, that and I'm thinking back on my own school days and trying to think of why we labeled the Nazis as evil other than the horrors of the Holocaust. And, frankly, I'm coming up blank for the most part. Yeah, book burning and censorship and all that, but most of that sprang from the same well that poured forth the Holocaust: hypernationalism and the search for a scapegoat.

The United States was the first country to concertedly undertake compulsory sterilization programs for the purpose of eugenics. The heads of the program were avid believers in eugenics and frequently argued for their program. They were devastated when it was shut down due to ethical problems. The principal targets of the American program were the mentally retarded and the mentally ill, but also targeted under many state laws were the deaf, the blind, people with epilepsy, and the physically deformed. Native Americans, as well as Afro-American women,[16] were sterilized against their will in many states, often without their knowledge, while they were in a hospital for other reasons (e.g. childbirth). Some sterilizations also took place in prisons and other penal institutions, targeting criminality, but they were in the relative minority. In the end, over 65,000 individuals were sterilized in 33 states under state compulsory sterilization programs in the United States.[17]

States (27) that had sterilization laws still on the books (though not all were still in use) in 1956 were: Arizona, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah,Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia, Wisconsin.[24]

More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory ... ted_States

Beginning with Connecticut in 1896, many states enacted marriage laws with eugenic criteria, prohibiting anyone who was "epileptic, imbecile or feeble-minded" from marrying. In 1898 Charles B. Davenport, a prominent American biologist, began as director of a biological research station based in Cold Spring Harbor where he experimented with evolution in plants and animals. In 1904 Davenport received funds from the Carnegie Institution to found the Station for Experimental Evolution. The Eugenics Record Office opened in 1910 while Davenport and Harry H. Laughlin began to promote eugenics.[37]

More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

Hitler and his people actually got such ideas from studying the USA, and modelled their own initial laws on what theys aw there.

[Retiarius]

World War Two gives us another example. Kids are taught the evils of Germany and Germans, and all the awful things they did. But they are rarely taught that the Allied forces in WW2 did many of the same things. Or that the NAZIs actually learned some of their tricks from the Allies in the first place.

Umm... F'rinstance? I don't remember seeing anything about the Allies building concentration camps. Yes, detainment camps for the Japanese-Americans were horrible, but they weren't deliberately given starvation rations and then worked like rented mules, nor were they shoved into mass cremation chambers. Maybe somewhere in Russia, but then you're painting with a rather broad brush, here. Russia was an Ally strictly by convenience: "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of thing. Look how quickly we started rattling sabers at each other after WW2 ended, if you don't believe me. OK, yeah, the firebombing of Dresden was more than a bit over the top, but still it antedated the London Blitz, which had the same basic goal of undermining morale by mass slaughter of civilians. Not that I'm trying to pretty either event up. As Sherman said: "War is hell, boys."

What I'm wondering about in this particular case is just which evils you're saying the Nazis imported from the Allies. Well, that and I'm thinking back on my own school days and trying to think of why we labeled the Nazis as evil other than the horrors of the Holocaust. And, frankly, I'm coming up blank for the most part. Yeah, book burning and censorship and all that, but most of that sprang from the same well that poured forth the Holocaust: hypernationalism and the search for a scapegoat.

Actually, there were a few tricks the Nazis learned from the Allies—but from World War One, not World War Two. Propaganda is a prime example: the Allied use of propaganda in World War One inspired its use by the Nazis. We Americans have always been good at advertising, which is just a very slightly nicer word for it. Words have power if people let them have power—and enough people usually do.

[Bear]

What I always found interesting about the Nazi's and Hitler is if that it hadn't been for the racism and genocide, they'd have pretty much been an model political party and leadership. Most people tend to forget that Hitler dragged them out of an aweful recession, practically rebuilt the country into a powerhouse, introduced the moterways, and the first cheap car availible to everyone... then there was youth groups, health care, schooling etc that he introduced too to improve everyone from the ground up. But thats off subject...

Censorship and where do we draw the line on it? I see many peoples arguements that if you start by censoring universally abhored stuff like child porn, it can be a gateway that opens up censorship and control over things that don't really need it. The Politically Correctness crowd for instance really get up my nose and that is a form of censorship in its way... We can't say Merry Christmas on Tv incase it offends religious minorities, Its wrong for someone white to say the N word to a coloured person, yet they regularly call it each other... Despite that, I still think that the world does need some censorship if only because of the decline of society and our morals that has been happening for years now.

I'm not saying I'm against porn, or swearing in public or anything like that... but if censorship can't start turning people back towards respecting others and their veiws and rights, I think its a good thing. Only so long as we know where to draw the line and make sure we never cross it.

[Pneumonica]

The last act of democracy...

There must be a lot of fans of the Sedition Act running around, to say nothing of the USAPATRIOT act.

[Scaramouche]

There must be a lot of fans of the Sedition Act running around, to say nothing of the USAPATRIOT act.

Sadly, there are.

[Scaramouche]

By the way, that stuff I quoted up there may be from Wikicrappia, but it does at least give people an idea about where to start resaerching. Links and such. It's worth reading. Most people just aren't taught the things about their own nation which their government considered embarrassing or contrary to the image they sell to their public. Not too long ago I was chatting online with an American who knew nothing about the McCarthy era, and refused to believe it had happened when I explained it.

[midgetshrimp]

What I always found interesting about the Nazi's and Hitler is if that it hadn't been for the racism and genocide, they'd have pretty much been an model political party and leadership. Most people tend to forget that Hitler dragged them out of an aweful recession, practically rebuilt the country into a powerhouse, introduced the moterways, and the first cheap car availible to everyone... then there was youth groups, health care, schooling etc that he introduced too to improve everyone from the ground up. But thats off subject...

Yea, I thought about mentioning that as well (though Hitler's youth groups... wouldn't be too proud of them... :? ). I mean, if he wasn't a complete psycho, he would have been one of the world's greatest modern leaders. But then he ruined it. By being a complete psycho.

[Bear]

Well if it wasn't for the brainwashing in the youth groups, they'd have been even at their worst the equivilent of the Scouts or military cadets. But yeah... being a psycho ruined it all for him. Otherwise he's have been remembered up there above people like Churchill, who actually sucked as a prime minister if you look at the facts of history.

[midgetshrimp]

I'm an American, they don't teach us the facts of history. And I'm too lazy to look them up themselves. So I just don't believe in history. History is a myth. Like dirt.

[Don Alexander]

I'm an American, they don't teach us the facts of history. And I'm too lazy to look them up themselves. So I just don't believe in history. History is a myth. Like dirt.

And everyone older than you is clearly lying about their age. Because the world could not have existed before you were born. :roll:

[Harlock_the_Bard]

The United States was the first country to concertedly undertake compulsory sterilization programs for the purpose of eugenics. The heads of the program were avid believers in eugenics and frequently argued for their program. They were devastated when it was shut down due to ethical problems. The principal targets of the American program were the mentally retarded and the mentally ill, but also targeted under many state laws were the deaf, the blind, people with epilepsy, and the physically deformed. Native Americans, as well as Afro-American women,[16] were sterilized against their will in many states, often without their knowledge, while they were in a hospital for other reasons (e.g. childbirth). Some sterilizations also took place in prisons and other penal institutions, targeting criminality, but they were in the relative minority. In the end, over 65,000 individuals were sterilized in 33 states under state compulsory sterilization programs in the United States.[17]

States (27) that had sterilization laws still on the books (though not all were still in use) in 1956 were: Arizona, California, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Maine, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Montana, Nebraska, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Carolina, South Dakota, Utah,Vermont, Virginia, West Virginia, Wisconsin.[24]

More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory ... ted_States

Beginning with Connecticut in 1896, many states enacted marriage laws with eugenic criteria, prohibiting anyone who was "epileptic, imbecile or feeble-minded" from marrying. In 1898 Charles B. Davenport, a prominent American biologist, began as director of a biological research station based in Cold Spring Harbor where he experimented with evolution in plants and animals. In 1904 Davenport received funds from the Carnegie Institution to found the Station for Experimental Evolution. The Eugenics Record Office opened in 1910 while Davenport and Harry H. Laughlin began to promote eugenics.[37]

More: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

Hitler and his people actually got such ideas from studying the USA, and modelled their own initial laws on what they saw there.

OK, I forgot about our own eugenics movement, but there's a world of difference between 65 thousand people "simply" being sterilized and 10 million people being systematically exterminated. Again, I'm not trying to pretty up the American eugenics movement, but I don't think even the most avid of them would have approved of wholesale slaughter. Their goal, arguably laudable despite their twisted ethics, was the betterment of the human race. The extermination of millions of people whose only "crime" was being born different is not a betterment of the human race, it is a defilement of the human spirit. And yes, I believe that applies to war as well.

For that matter, do you have any evidence that Davenport experimented on human beings?

And I would point out that at least part of the Nazi philosophy was homegrown: Friedrich Nietzsche's "Mensch und Uebermensch" had a rather strong impact on them, by all accounts. (That's "Man and Superman," for those of you who don't speak German) And, in point of fact, the comic book character "Superman" was created at least in part to mock the (by 1938, quite well known) Nazi pretensions at building a superman. The name was definitely a direct jab, if not the abilities, relatively modest though they were at first (even the Nazis didn't think their program would build someone who could bounce bullets, after all)

[midgetshrimp]

I'm an American, they don't teach us the facts of history. And I'm too lazy to look them up themselves. So I just don't believe in history. History is a myth. Like dirt.

And everyone older than you is clearly lying about their age. Because the world could not have existed before you were born. :roll:

Yes, along with the Holocaust never happening, Elvis living in my basement, and the monkeys lying about aids (away from "Eww, aidsy" to "Ah, fun monkey disease!"). :mrgreen:

[Pneumonica]

Yea, I thought about mentioning that as well (though Hitler's youth groups... wouldn't be too proud of them... :? ). I mean, if he wasn't a complete psycho, he would have been one of the world's greatest modern leaders. But then he ruined it. By being a complete psycho.

There's a reason he was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize. A despot needs to do good things for somebody in order to gain absolute authority.