2014-09-12 [VC] Vampire Savior
Moderator: Adam_Arnold
- Hurbster
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Re: 2014-09-12 [VC] Vampire Savior
Arachnids ?
"We're only immortal for a limited time. " - Dreamline.
- Caseyorourke
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- Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:06 am
Re: 2014-09-12 [VC] Vampire Savior
OK, Let me get this straight in my head....... Suki made Lori all those many years ago and if I'm read the original storyline, Lori later made Suki during that stint at Bakertown High School. Who truly is the master and who is the slave. Paradoxes just drive me crazy especially when it involves a physical item that seemingly pops into existence without the necessity of being manufactured and is brought from the future into the past and later ends up be given back to the original person. Am I crazy or is this storyline is beginning to look a chicken vs egg conundrum.
I remember another paradoxical movie. Back when I was in the military overseas, AFRTS showed a SF/western movie where a motorcycle rider unknowingly went through a secret government experimental time warp to the old west. His bike was stolen by rustlers. He had a medallion which he a woman that it was given to him by his great-grandmother who never married, but had one child. He later seduces the woman,then accompanies the sheriff to get his bike back. During the climatic gunfight, fight scene a helicopter which was brought through comes to pull him out, as he leaves, he tries to say goodby to the girl, but she rips his medallion off as he helicopter lifts off. All the guy can think about is the medallion and great-grandmother and realizes he is his own great grandfather. If that isn't paradox enough, I'm still trying to figure out where the medallion came from in the first place.
Forgive me for waxing nostalgic, but I just wanted to ........AW HELL, I just wanted to tell a story .
I remember another paradoxical movie. Back when I was in the military overseas, AFRTS showed a SF/western movie where a motorcycle rider unknowingly went through a secret government experimental time warp to the old west. His bike was stolen by rustlers. He had a medallion which he a woman that it was given to him by his great-grandmother who never married, but had one child. He later seduces the woman,then accompanies the sheriff to get his bike back. During the climatic gunfight, fight scene a helicopter which was brought through comes to pull him out, as he leaves, he tries to say goodby to the girl, but she rips his medallion off as he helicopter lifts off. All the guy can think about is the medallion and great-grandmother and realizes he is his own great grandfather. If that isn't paradox enough, I'm still trying to figure out where the medallion came from in the first place.
Forgive me for waxing nostalgic, but I just wanted to ........AW HELL, I just wanted to tell a story .
- Caseyorourke
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Re: 2014-09-12 [VC] Vampire Savior
I hate spiders.Hurbster wrote:Arachnids ?
- Adam_Arnold
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Re: 2014-09-12 [VC] Vampire Savior
That movie is called Timerider:I remember another paradoxical movie. Back when I was in the military overseas, AFRTS showed a SF/western movie where a motorcycle rider unknowingly went through a secret government experimental time warp to the old west. His bike was stolen by rustlers. He had a medallion which he a woman that it was given to him by his great-grandmother who never married, but had one child. He later seduces the woman,then accompanies the sheriff to get his bike back. During the climatic gunfight, fight scene a helicopter which was brought through comes to pull him out, as he leaves, he tries to say goodby to the girl, but she rips his medallion off as he helicopter lifts off. All the guy can think about is the medallion and great-grandmother and realizes he is his own great grandfather. If that isn't paradox enough, I'm still trying to figure out where the medallion came from in the first place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timerider: ... Lyle_Swann
- Sk'thloq
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Re: 2014-09-12 [VC] Vampire Savior
This is actually more like that episode of Futurama where Fry became his own grandfather. Either way, time travel is confusing.Caseyorourke wrote:OK, Let me get this straight in my head....... Suki made Lori all those many years ago and if I'm read the original storyline, Lori later made Suki during that stint at Bakertown High School. Who truly is the master and who is the slave. Paradoxes just drive me crazy especially when it involves a physical item that seemingly pops into existence without the necessity of being manufactured and is brought from the future into the past and later ends up be given back to the original person. Am I crazy or is this storyline is beginning to look a chicken vs egg conundrum.
I remember another paradoxical movie. Back when I was in the military overseas, AFRTS showed a SF/western movie where a motorcycle rider unknowingly went through a secret government experimental time warp to the old west. His bike was stolen by rustlers. He had a medallion which he a woman that it was given to him by his great-grandmother who never married, but had one child. He later seduces the woman,then accompanies the sheriff to get his bike back. During the climatic gunfight, fight scene a helicopter which was brought through comes to pull him out, as he leaves, he tries to say goodby to the girl, but she rips his medallion off as he helicopter lifts off. All the guy can think about is the medallion and great-grandmother and realizes he is his own great grandfather. If that isn't paradox enough, I'm still trying to figure out where the medallion came from in the first place.
Forgive me for waxing nostalgic, but I just wanted to ........AW HELL, I just wanted to tell a story .
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Sk'thloq R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
HUGS!
HUGS!
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Re: 2014-09-12 [VC] Vampire Savior
I'm in that mood ;) , so let's talk about time-travel (in fiction):
There are practically 3 Types of Time-Travelling (and a whole mess of in-between cases were the writers simply didn't really bother to put the slightest effort in coming up with any rules or even some coherence) :
1) When you travel to the past, you don't really do that but instead you enter a Parallel Universe that is exactly the same as yours up to the point of your insertion in the timeline and splits from there. Nothing you do will affect your original timeline. You can't change the past. This is actually the most "scientific" theory, aka the most plausible given our current understanding of nature, but it still has logical problems such as: if it is the act of "time-travelling" that creates the parallel universe you'll need a hell lot of energy to pull that off (lol) and if we assume that all the infinite parallel universes already exist, we still need some mechanism/explanation of how that can be possible (it's not completely outside the realms of possibility though).
2) The past can be changed just fine, and doing so affects the future, including yourself and your memories, though for some reason those changes propagate like "ripples" and take effect over "time". This is the style that Back to the Future uses, and I think it's also the official type in the DC Comics universe (judging from my experience with the Young Justice TV series). Vampire Cheerleaders paid some "homage" to it when they started "flickering" and had to "turn" Lori in order not to disappear, but that's not the type of time-travel they seem to be going about (it's type 3 below). It's obvious that, although used for great entertainment in many fictional stories, this kind of time-travel makes very little sense if you think about it: e.g. why slowly disappearing or having your memories "adjust", instead of just "poof" vanishing or "poof" having a completely different set of memories because of the meddling? Who is "moderating" the (inconsistent) "speed" of the ripples through time and space?
3) A Stable Time-Loop (or as I like to call it, "The Gargoyles Theory of Time-Travel", due to its brilliant use in the Gargolyes TV Series). The basic moto of this type of time travel would be: "If you are destined to travel to the past, then you have already done so." In other words, you can't change the past again and any attempts to do so would result in the exact actions that made that very past be what it is. Example: if you attempt to kill your grandfather, you will fail for some reason (you'll get hit by a car, etc.) and your failure may even result in him meeting your grandmother (the nurse who came to check on your accident) or something. This type of TT makes for very compelling stories (and has been used as such), but has a whole lot of logical problems as well. Let's talk about three "sub-types" of a Stable Time-Loop:
a) A physical item travels through the loop or even is "created" out of the thin air BY the loop. The example with the medallion above is a perfect one. A guy was given a medallion from his parents, then goes back in time and gives that same medallion TO his parents, who then give it back to him in the future. In this case, NO ONE ever created that medallion: it has NO ORIGIN. It was created BY THE LOOP itself. Besides the absurdity of spontaneous creation, having a physical item caught in the loop is totally impossible: because although our eyes cannot discern it without aid, on the molecular level no object is exactly the same it was just a second ago: some molecules have fallen off and/or reacted with molecules in the air (rust is a thing), etc. In the real world, this is the reason why thing age and fall apart. But what IS the age of a thing caught in a loop? And if object A (that I gave you) after a second becomes the -almost identical, but missing a molecule- object B (that you give me back) when I give it again it should be the -almost identical, but missing one more molecule- object C, not object A again.
b) Information travels through the loop or even is "created" out of thin air BY the loop. Example: your future self visits you and gives you an old notebook with instructions on how to build a time machine. Because the notebook is falling apart, you take a new one and copy all the information, then spend some years making the time-machine and finally you visit your past self and hand him the COPIED notebook that has gotten old through use. We don't have a problem with an immortal, decaying object here, but only the query of "where did the information about how to make a time-machine come from?". Answer: from thin air, from the loop itself. It's worth noting that this is exactly what happens in the 1st Terminator movie and also in the 2nd (if you take their "relief" at the end for saving the future as a false hope). In fact, the whole creation of the Terminator AI is an information stable time-loop, as it is reverse-engineered from the part of the 1st Terminator -from the future- that they happened to find! The AI was created BY the loop! The case of giving birth to an ancestor of yours is ALSO an information time loop (genes are information, instructions on how to build a human, and they are copied between generations, like the notebook, not physically passed down like the medallion). Of course, the latter is a whole other can of worms, as the random nature of gene reshuffling at conception makes it a statistical improbability that the EXACT same arrangement of genes can appear twice without cloning.
c) Nothing is caught in the loop. The only thing that happens is that the time travellers (usually accidentally) end up assuring that things happen as they are destined to. This is the biggest issue with the 3rd type of Time Travel: it requires the idea of a fixed destiny for everyone and everything! Everything is predetermined, because everything has happened already.
Vampire Cheerleaders seems to be following this type of Time Travel. As a subtype, mostly it's (c), with the trio going all around history and accidentally setting into motion events as they were already destined to happen, but it's also a bit of (b), because have you realized that Lori's "type" of vampire-dom was actually created by the loop?!!! Think about it, if we call it the LV (lorna vampire) virus: it has NO ORIGIN point, it went from Suki to Lori to Suki (and others, but they don't matter here) to Lori to Suki, etc! It's a non-material "information" transfer (a "disease"), but still it's caught in the loop, made BY the loop out of thin air. It would thus be perfectly possible if there are no other vampires OF THAT TYPE (with these precise abilities, strengths, weakness) in this universe other than Lori and her progeny! ;)
As for what this paradox means for Lori and Suki's master-spawn relationship? I would say that they should mutually feel the other as their Master, because they both are. (this only applies for everytime they meet AFTER Suki turned her, when following Suki's subjective narration of time, which we do).
There are practically 3 Types of Time-Travelling (and a whole mess of in-between cases were the writers simply didn't really bother to put the slightest effort in coming up with any rules or even some coherence) :
1) When you travel to the past, you don't really do that but instead you enter a Parallel Universe that is exactly the same as yours up to the point of your insertion in the timeline and splits from there. Nothing you do will affect your original timeline. You can't change the past. This is actually the most "scientific" theory, aka the most plausible given our current understanding of nature, but it still has logical problems such as: if it is the act of "time-travelling" that creates the parallel universe you'll need a hell lot of energy to pull that off (lol) and if we assume that all the infinite parallel universes already exist, we still need some mechanism/explanation of how that can be possible (it's not completely outside the realms of possibility though).
2) The past can be changed just fine, and doing so affects the future, including yourself and your memories, though for some reason those changes propagate like "ripples" and take effect over "time". This is the style that Back to the Future uses, and I think it's also the official type in the DC Comics universe (judging from my experience with the Young Justice TV series). Vampire Cheerleaders paid some "homage" to it when they started "flickering" and had to "turn" Lori in order not to disappear, but that's not the type of time-travel they seem to be going about (it's type 3 below). It's obvious that, although used for great entertainment in many fictional stories, this kind of time-travel makes very little sense if you think about it: e.g. why slowly disappearing or having your memories "adjust", instead of just "poof" vanishing or "poof" having a completely different set of memories because of the meddling? Who is "moderating" the (inconsistent) "speed" of the ripples through time and space?
3) A Stable Time-Loop (or as I like to call it, "The Gargoyles Theory of Time-Travel", due to its brilliant use in the Gargolyes TV Series). The basic moto of this type of time travel would be: "If you are destined to travel to the past, then you have already done so." In other words, you can't change the past again and any attempts to do so would result in the exact actions that made that very past be what it is. Example: if you attempt to kill your grandfather, you will fail for some reason (you'll get hit by a car, etc.) and your failure may even result in him meeting your grandmother (the nurse who came to check on your accident) or something. This type of TT makes for very compelling stories (and has been used as such), but has a whole lot of logical problems as well. Let's talk about three "sub-types" of a Stable Time-Loop:
a) A physical item travels through the loop or even is "created" out of the thin air BY the loop. The example with the medallion above is a perfect one. A guy was given a medallion from his parents, then goes back in time and gives that same medallion TO his parents, who then give it back to him in the future. In this case, NO ONE ever created that medallion: it has NO ORIGIN. It was created BY THE LOOP itself. Besides the absurdity of spontaneous creation, having a physical item caught in the loop is totally impossible: because although our eyes cannot discern it without aid, on the molecular level no object is exactly the same it was just a second ago: some molecules have fallen off and/or reacted with molecules in the air (rust is a thing), etc. In the real world, this is the reason why thing age and fall apart. But what IS the age of a thing caught in a loop? And if object A (that I gave you) after a second becomes the -almost identical, but missing a molecule- object B (that you give me back) when I give it again it should be the -almost identical, but missing one more molecule- object C, not object A again.
b) Information travels through the loop or even is "created" out of thin air BY the loop. Example: your future self visits you and gives you an old notebook with instructions on how to build a time machine. Because the notebook is falling apart, you take a new one and copy all the information, then spend some years making the time-machine and finally you visit your past self and hand him the COPIED notebook that has gotten old through use. We don't have a problem with an immortal, decaying object here, but only the query of "where did the information about how to make a time-machine come from?". Answer: from thin air, from the loop itself. It's worth noting that this is exactly what happens in the 1st Terminator movie and also in the 2nd (if you take their "relief" at the end for saving the future as a false hope). In fact, the whole creation of the Terminator AI is an information stable time-loop, as it is reverse-engineered from the part of the 1st Terminator -from the future- that they happened to find! The AI was created BY the loop! The case of giving birth to an ancestor of yours is ALSO an information time loop (genes are information, instructions on how to build a human, and they are copied between generations, like the notebook, not physically passed down like the medallion). Of course, the latter is a whole other can of worms, as the random nature of gene reshuffling at conception makes it a statistical improbability that the EXACT same arrangement of genes can appear twice without cloning.
c) Nothing is caught in the loop. The only thing that happens is that the time travellers (usually accidentally) end up assuring that things happen as they are destined to. This is the biggest issue with the 3rd type of Time Travel: it requires the idea of a fixed destiny for everyone and everything! Everything is predetermined, because everything has happened already.
Vampire Cheerleaders seems to be following this type of Time Travel. As a subtype, mostly it's (c), with the trio going all around history and accidentally setting into motion events as they were already destined to happen, but it's also a bit of (b), because have you realized that Lori's "type" of vampire-dom was actually created by the loop?!!! Think about it, if we call it the LV (lorna vampire) virus: it has NO ORIGIN point, it went from Suki to Lori to Suki (and others, but they don't matter here) to Lori to Suki, etc! It's a non-material "information" transfer (a "disease"), but still it's caught in the loop, made BY the loop out of thin air. It would thus be perfectly possible if there are no other vampires OF THAT TYPE (with these precise abilities, strengths, weakness) in this universe other than Lori and her progeny! ;)
As for what this paradox means for Lori and Suki's master-spawn relationship? I would say that they should mutually feel the other as their Master, because they both are. (this only applies for everytime they meet AFTER Suki turned her, when following Suki's subjective narration of time, which we do).
- Nightgazer Starlight
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Re: 2014-09-12 [VC] Vampire Savior
Two problems with that though.CFT wrote:As a subtype, mostly it's (c), with the trio going all around history and accidentally setting into motion events as they were already destined to happen, but it's also a bit of (b), because have you realized that Lori's "type" of vampire-dom was actually created by the loop?!!! Think about it, if we call it the LV (lorna vampire) virus: it has NO ORIGIN point, it went from Suki to Lori to Suki (and others, but they don't matter here) to Lori to Suki, etc! It's a non-material "information" transfer (a "disease"), but still it's caught in the loop, made BY the loop out of thin air. It would thus be perfectly possible if there are no other vampires OF THAT TYPE (with these precise abilities, strengths, weakness) in this universe other than Lori and her progeny! ;)
1. The old Roman vampire who got ate by the gorgons was one of Lori's type.
2. Back in Lumeria they knew what a Nocturna(Lori's vampire type) was, before she ever existed.
- vampire hunter D
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Re: 2014-09-12 [VC] Vampire Savior
Maybe Suki goes even further back and makes more?
Pointless arguing is one of the three pillars upon which the Internet is built. The other two are of course cat pictures and porn.
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Re: 2014-09-12 [VC] Vampire Savior
You're right, of course. But I didn't make that exact claim ( "there aren't other Lori-type vampires in this universe besides her progeny" ), though I admit it may look like I did at first glance. What I actually said is that it would have been perfectly possible (IF the writers wanted to do so, and IF they hadn't already introduced other such vampires unconnected to Lori) for that to be the case, not that it actually is. Or we can use vampire hunter D's explanation as well! ;)Nightgazer Starlight wrote:Two problems with that though.CFT wrote:As a subtype, mostly it's (c), with the trio going all around history and accidentally setting into motion events as they were already destined to happen, but it's also a bit of (b), because have you realized that Lori's "type" of vampire-dom was actually created by the loop?!!! Think about it, if we call it the LV (lorna vampire) virus: it has NO ORIGIN point, it went from Suki to Lori to Suki (and others, but they don't matter here) to Lori to Suki, etc! It's a non-material "information" transfer (a "disease"), but still it's caught in the loop, made BY the loop out of thin air. It would thus be perfectly possible if there are no other vampires OF THAT TYPE (with these precise abilities, strengths, weakness) in this universe other than Lori and her progeny! ;)
1. The old Roman vampire who got ate by the gorgons was one of Lori's type.
2. Back in Lumeria they knew what a Nocturna(Lori's vampire type) was, before she ever existed.
Because:
"Time travel is funny that way."
-David Xanatos, Gargoyles TV Series
- Nightgazer Starlight
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Re: 2014-09-12 [VC] Vampire Savior
With Lori fighting those bugs.
And Lori having a gun.
Yes.
I just have to post this now...
Lori : "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil, because I have an assault rifle and I am the scariest bitch in the whole damn valley!"
And Lori having a gun.
Yes.
I just have to post this now...
Lori : "Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil, because I have an assault rifle and I am the scariest bitch in the whole damn valley!"