CEC Voting: Guys.

[Pneumonica]

Quite frankly I think Pneu withdrawing, and publiccally complaining before PMing me privately is a complete over reaction. This contest was meant for fun and not meant to be taken so seriously. When Pneu dresses as a guy, is biologically a guy, acts like a guy and doesn't correct anyone who addresses him as a guy, how can he complain when he's labeled himself as such despite claiming to be genderless?

I did PM you privately. All I said in public was to reaffirm that I wasn't a guy. That you say otherwise is disingenuous, because I know you've read that PM - it says so in my sent items. You addressed this in public.

I've addressed this to everyone who's asked - I take either pronoun because there is no pronoun applicable to me. When D&E addresses me in the female, I don't correct him either. The people I deal with on a daily basis know better than to group me incorrectly, or they are not people that I deal with. If this was about something biological, I wouldn't be offended. You overstepped your bounds by making my decision for me. If Nathan had competed, where would you have placed him? He's biologically female.

I placed Pneu in this bracket for two reasons. Firstly: All the guys were complaining about having to compete against the girls and clevage, meaning a gender split was the most fair on the multiple male enterants. I'm pretty much sure from previous actions that Pneu would have taken more offence at being placed in with the female enterants, which is why he was placed here. Secondly, I thought Pneu would have had much more chance of winning in the male group. A fact that was held true by him being in second place behind Don before being removed.

That is not your place to say either. For starters, you have no way of knowing how I'd do. Furthermore, how does that make me feel? How would you feel competing against the women. Would you feel better knowing you'd one or that you'd lost? Would it be better to be the best woman or the worst? Or would you rather be somewhere in the middle, grouped in with the average?

Thank you for taking my name off. That is all that I needed, no further action need be taken.

[Don Alexander]

Suddenly, the votes seem a lot different!!

So much for my lead...

[Phoenix]

You should have a disclaimer on future sex-groupings: Whatever's in your pants determines which category you go into. Simple. That's how the dictionary define male and female - by genitals. If people complaim, they can look in their pants and go"Oh no...that's right"

[Bear]

And this is exactly why I didn't want to remove Pneu as its compeltely screwed up the votes for everyone else.

[Swayambhu]

It's not that big a deal...show some respect and understanding, guys, no need to be rude.

I've got a friend named Ukhet who considers herself genderless, despite what she was born with.

You shouldn't belittle their beliefs just because you don't understand them. Not everything runs on simplicity, just like how Asaryu's insecurities don't run on simplicity. And yet you seem understanding of her issues, and even jump to her rescue when someone blisters them...

I mean really, c'mon.

[Asaryu]

There are bound to be more circumstances where this comes up. I think there's been an issue both with boobs and with gender here. I've got it on good authority that the next contest will be a no-pics contest, so perhaps we can use that time to figure out a tenable solution that satisfies all parties.

Maybe useful suggestions can go into the suggestions and announcements thread at the top? That way we come across a consensus that is respectful to as many members as possible.

[Dirty n Evil]

I've thought very long and hard on this matter on a way to make this fair... and while I haven't come to a conclusion, I will post my thoughts under the GD Announcements / Suggestions thread. That way we can come to a fair conclusion to this issue while being understanding for the wonderful diversity we have present on these boards through civil discussion.

[Swayambhu]

...We don't really have to make a huge deal out of this. Really.

It's not like there's a lot of people on this board that consider themselves genderless.

I mean, if anything, if we were to split out contests up between genders and the genderless, Pseu would win the genderless by default, AMIRITE?

...maybe this is a bad time to try and lighten the mood.

Look, uh, it just doesn't seem fair to not do certain things because of a little unpleasant mistake. We can still respect Pseu without having to take away stuff from other people, even if they abuse their titty privileges. I only made a playful fuss because, as much as I appreciate boobs, I'm really more of an ass lady. I just wanted to see moar posteriors.

We can just, you know...not post cleavage as a bribe to the voters. Not directly, anyway. Just...leave those sorts of things in the picture thread? I dunno.

GEE SORRY FOR BEING A FUDDY-DUDDY GUYS.

[Phoenix]

Why though? I just don't see why, on an online forum game, where it's a bit of fun, Pneu can't just suck it up and say "hey, tell you what, put me in the male category". You're right - I don't understand this genderless thing. IS Pneu about to undergo an operation to change his sex? Because then I'd get it. But this whole issue is silly. Honestly, if he objects to a contest where there are votes for males and votes for females, my two-penneth-worth says to not let him enter. If he can't accept that it's just a bit of fun and not take something so light-hearted in the way that it was meant, and must find insult in everything, that's his problem. You don't show up to a sporting match and change the rules to suit one player. Why's this different?

[Asaryu]

Okay. For one thing, this isn't a sporting match. This is a bit of fun. And fun isn't meant to insult people. It's meant to be as inclusive as possible. We are friends, not rivals.

Second, from what I understand, Pneu isn't about to undertake a sex-change operation as Pneu doesn't identify as either male OR female. I will try to paraphrase so as not to bore the disinterested. There is a distinct difference between Gender and Sex. Biological sex can crudely be defined as what's between your legs (though this is problematic in itself for hermaphrodites or people who were mistakenly castrated at birth - of which there are a surprisingly large number). On the other hand, Gender is something that is socially constructed. We act out our gender roles based on a negotiated understanding of what it means to be male and what it means to be female. Now, self-identification is an important aspect of this, but it is legitimised in the public arena, and through widespread social acceptance of the identification as valid.

A more socially common manifestation is that of the 'tom-boy'. A girl who behaves and performs like a boy. Now, we have a name for it, but what if that girl grows up to be a woman, and still behaves like a boy? Are we still going to treat it as some childish thing they are going to grow out of, or are we going to give legitimacy to their claims to a masculine identity and simply say they are a boy? And more problematic still...what if they are not a boy, but also not a girl? What if their identification transcends the simple binary of male/female? Are we going to sit here and say that how they wish to be viewed and how they wish to view themselves is not correct somehow? What does it cost us to let them identify themselves however they please? No more than a small amount of discussion time.

Now, just for shits and giggles, lets just say you knew someone like that. Say they were your friend. Say you knew that they were being left out of social activities that you mutually shared frequently because they felt they were being dishonest with themselves and others by identifying themselves based on something as arbitrary as whether or not they have a penis. Say you had the power to help simply figure out a better way. And so, in answer to your question of why: Why on earth not?

[Phoenix]

Thanks for the...philosophic...viewpoint, Asaryu. But I still don't see where a problem lies. Gender is a fact of life. Even for plants. If you have an issue with that, I'm not sure there's much we can do to accommodate it in any facet of life. This issue is far deeper than feeling insulted on an online forum.

[midgetshrimp]

Thanks for the...philosophic...viewpoint, Asaryu. But I still don't see where a problem lies. Gender is a fact of life. Even for plants. If you have an issue with that, I'm not sure there's much we can do to accommodate it in any facet of life. This issue is far deeper than feeling insulted on an online forum.

No, I'm pretty sure the issue at hand is exactly about trying not to have anyone feel insulted. Pneu has brought up an issue larger than himself (I readily agree on the limitation of the English language, whoever made that argument), and instead of skirting, ignoring, or claiming it as a silly thing, we are directly attempting to make this place comfortable to everyone by discussing it and coming up with alternate forms of communication as well as finding ways to create forum activities that don't leave anyone out or feeling ostracized. It's a slow issue to be resolved, especially with Pneu on hiatus from us, considering how helpful his input would be.

And, to be honest, no one is forcing you into this issue, Phoenix. It's going to be discussed and hopefully resolved, and beyond saying it isn't an issue and showing you don't understand how it may be offensive, you haven't added anything to this conversation, and even that is neither constructive nor helpful.

[Phoenix]

And, to be honest, no one is forcing you into this issue, Phoenix. It's going to be discussed and hopefully resolved, and beyond saying it isn't an issue and showing you don't understand how it may be offensive, you haven't added anything to this conversation, and even that is neither constructive nor helpful.[/color]

Actually, it is. It provides an alternative input. If Pneu is so offended by gender splits, yet enters them anyway, I don't see that he (Can we even use 'he'?) has any right to complain. If it's split differently, it won't work for all contests (and I think splitting it differently is a good idea). So he'll just have to pick-and-choose which he wants to enter, depending on how they're split. Those that are gender-defined, he can choose to avoid if he likes. Those which are not, he can choose to enter.

Look, sooner or later, you have to draw the line. EVERY contest has a way of being taken discriminatingly by a user. I, for example, might argue that I'm neither 'cute' nor 'ebil', and therefore could not enter either. So I didn't. That's the choice I made. Pneu could argue that he defines himself as neither male, nor female, and therefore cannot enter either. But there will be other contests that he can enter. So you win some, you lose some, and everyone's happy, nobody's upset and it saves us having an argument and falling out over something that I really don't see as being remotely important to an online forum.

[Asaryu]

It is indeed a far deeper issue, but one that is never going to be solved if we simply throw our hands up in the air and say people will just have to deal with it.

As sentient beings, capable of empathy, and with the knowledge of the pain, isolation and humiliation involved in another persons struggle it is our responsibility to make sure that we do everything within our power to make that situation a little better.

I mean seriously. All we're asking for is a solution-oriented discussion. Dismissing it as 'too big a problem' is just another way of saying you can't understand it and so it's not important.

Did You Know: While humans and most species are divided into only two sexes, mushrooms contain over 36,000 sexes.

Sex is a fact of life. Gender is a construction. We construct our gender based on our clothes, our interests and the way we behave. If someone doesn't fit into these very limiting constructions, they have a right to identify otherwise. The problem is the lack of validity given to a self-identification.

You have complained that people have narrow views about who you are when you dressed in black and listened to heavy metal. This is the same issue. People construct your identity for you, and they do it incorrectly, and by golly it's insulting. Not all people who dress in black and listen to metal are trouble-makers, just as not all people with a penis are male. To not identify as either gender is, while rarer, no less valid a construction of gender.

[Phoenix]

You have complained that people have narrow views about who you are when you dressed in black and listened to heavy metal. This is the same issue.

I said used to. I haven't dressed that way in over 4 years. And there's a big difference between getting beaten for what you wear and listen to, by large groups of older teenagers, and choosing to take offence at an online forum poll...